Podcast Transcript – Series One, Episode 21
bee Law Quirktastic October 2020
[00:01:00] Bee Law: I’d get waken up by roosters, every morning. So it was definitely different from my life in upstate New York.
[00:01:06]I had to accept myself for who I was, as opposed to the role that. the typical Southern bell is supposed to take on my neighbors literally have a Confederate flag hanging from their front door,my great grandfather was a sharecropper.my mom and my dad both instilled in me is that I couldn’t be the obstacle to my own success.
[00:01:27]when I wrote to one of the publications, they said, Oh, we don’t know any black cause players. And I’m like, did you look? Literally the day after I quit , I found out that next day that I actually got accepted into the incubator. we were able to work with Lovecraft Country, which was a show on HBO.
I feel like I’m very over mentored and underfunded like, and I feel like that’s the story for a lot of black founders, especially black women founders.
[00:01:42] Dan: [00:01:42] What’s up Unfound Nation, Dan Kihanya here. Thanks so much for listening in to another episode of Founders Unfound, that was Bee Law, founder and CEO of Quirktastic. Uh, social video and networking platform for geeks and hobbyists can join fandom communities and create collaborative [00:02:00] video. Bee as a former cytogenetic scientist turned entrepreneur and Quirktastic with its 200,000 plus online followers has been featured in Essence magazine, Techcrunch and Forbes.
[00:02:12] Our episode is sponsored by Founders Live a global platform, built to inspire, educate, and entertain the modern entrepreneur. Be sure to visit founderslive.com or check for a link in the show notes. If you’re a new listener to founders and found, we’ve got something special for the black founders out there who are underestimated and under celebrated, there’s another way to get onto our podcast.
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[00:02:59] So be sure [00:03:00] to drop your review today. So to that end, I want to give a shout out and a big thank you to Jean-Que who gave us five stars and wrote: There’s something special about this podcast, because several times, while listening, I have to pause, pull out my notepad and take some serious notes. I’m not accustomed to doing this, but the insights shared on these episodes are literal gems.
[00:03:22] If you’re in tech, this podcast is a must listen, glad to be a part of the Unfound Nation. Nabbed some dope merch too. Thanks so much Jean-Que. That was great. And hope you enjoy the merge. Jean-Que’s company is a new networking platform for entertainment professionals called Artist Pro. Find out more artistepro.com or @artisteproapp on Instagram and Twitter.
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[00:04:11] [00:04:00] Hello and welcome to Founders Unfound. Spotlighting the best startups you don’t know yet. We bring you stories of exceptional founders from underrepresented and underestimated backgrounds. This is episode number 21 in our series on founders of African descent. I’m your host, Dan Kihanya let’s get on it today.
[00:04:28] We have Bee Law, founder and CEO of Quirktastic, a social video and networking platform for geeks and hobbyists. Welcome to the show. We’ll be we’re super excited to have you. Thanks for making the time.
[00:04:41] Bee Law: [00:04:41] Thanks so much. I’m super excited to be here and talk with everybody.
[00:04:44] Dan: [00:04:44] Awesome. Terrific. So first let’s just maybe help the listeners understand what exactly is Quirktastic.
[00:04:51] Bee Law: [00:04:51] Yeah. So as you mentioned, it is a social video and live streaming platform for a UX and gamers. And a lot of people also use it for [00:05:00] networking. And I guess the best way to describe it as kind of to tell a little bit of why I started. Uh, I, myself am a huge nerd. I worked in science for a bit, and I also am a very big anime fan.
[00:05:13] And I just remember wanting people to talk to you about certain episodes or like certain fandoms that I liked. So Quirktastic, and platform QuirkChat. Actually allows people to find new fans to talk to about their favorite fandoms.
[00:05:28] Dan: [00:05:28] I love it. This is going to be fun to dive into because it’s a world that I don’t know that well, and I totally get it though.
[00:05:34] So, but before we go into the company and sort of its story, let’s hear a little bit about you. Where did you grow up? Where are you from?
[00:05:41] Bee Law: [00:05:41] Yeah, so I grew up in between Rochester, New York and Charlotte, North Carolina. I’d say I spent a lot of my developmental years in the South, so Charlotte, North Carolina.
[00:05:53] Dan: [00:05:53] Nice. Um, so you’re a Southern southerner,
[00:05:56] Bee Law: [00:05:56] I guess I am. I know. Yeah. It’s funny. I [00:06:00] went, even when I tell people like, Oh yeah, I’m from Rochester, New York. They’re just like, Oh, that’s not New York. You’re basically from Canada because it’s like 45 minutes outside of Canada. But yeah. I guess when it comes to what I’ve learned and how I’ve lived my life, I’ve definitely been a Southern.
[00:06:15] Okay.
[00:06:15] Dan: [00:06:15] Do you remember when you made that transition when you made that move from Rochester to North Carolina?
[00:06:20] Bee Law: [00:06:20] Oh, yes, I do. Because it was a lot of culture shock. Like I, um, my mom’s side of the family is actually from North Carolina, which is why we moved down here. And I just remember people I’m just laughing at the way that I talked.
[00:06:33] We were Charlotte nowadays is very, um, like metropolitan compared to what it used to be when I first moved here. However, we lived in like the suburban or the area. So like Matthews, North Carolina. And like, I grew up next to a farm. Like I’d get waken up by researchers, uh, every morning. So it was.
[00:06:53] Definitely different from my life in upstate New York.
[00:06:56] Dan: [00:06:56] Sounds like it. Yeah. That’s a pretty big difference. You don’t [00:07:00] really have a strong Southern accent,
[00:07:02] Bee Law: [00:07:02] I guess not. Yeah. I was going to say, does it ever come out? Uh, I say y’all every now and again, but I think I have a pretty neutral accent.
[00:07:11] Dan: [00:07:11] And did you go to high school in North Carolina?
[00:07:13] Bee Law: [00:07:13] Yes. Yeah. I even went to college, uh, in North Carolina, UNC Charlotte, if anybody’s familiar. Nice.
[00:07:21] Dan: [00:07:21] What was it like? I mean, I’m not from the South and I’ve spent some time there, but I don’t really know it intimately. What’s it like to grow up in Charlotte, North Carolina area?
[00:07:30] Bee Law: [00:07:30] Oh yeah. How do I describe it?
[00:07:32] So I’ve actually lived on the West coast, which I believe that’s where you’re from. I lived. And the Bay area as well as LA recently. And I think one thing that I noticed living out there compared to the South is just, it’s definitely a more liberal on the West coast compared to the South where it’s just very conservative.
[00:07:53] And I think, I don’t know, being in a place that’s just very conservative and I also grew up Christian. I think if you’re [00:08:00] someone who’s eclectic, like I was told that I was, or. Even something as simple seemingly today is liking Anime. It was not very much so received well from including my family. So I think there was just, I dunno, I feel like I had to learn how to accept myself for who I was, as opposed to the role that I guess the typical Southern Belle is supposed to take on.
[00:08:24] And then adding on being black in the South, um, in the South of the United States, There’s the history that goes there, especially with North Carolina. If you look back on just Jim Crow in general, that’s where a lot of things took place. So you have your growing up years and then that shadow of like America’s dark past, just looming over everything that you do.
[00:08:47] And for me, like, I’m definitely a, um, A person that just takes responsibility for my future. And doesn’t like to make a lot of excuses for the things that happen in my life. But I living in the South, [00:09:00] especially North Carolina, you can definitely see how I know you can kind of get a little mad at just the history that we’ve had here.
[00:09:06] And I don’t know if that’s like where you wanted this conversation to go for sure. But I think it’s just something that’s unavoidable. And especially with us going into this election, when I was in what, on the West coast. I’d hear people say like, Oh, like voting a certain way. And it was just like very much, so everyone knew who they were voting for it to, whereas in the South it was probably the exact opposite without me going into too much details.
[00:09:31] Dan: [00:09:31] Yeah. And I can see that. So this idea of the history and the legacy that you’re talking about, is that something that you felt when you were growing up, was it very present to you or something that, that you were reminded of? On a regular basis.
[00:09:44] Bee Law: [00:09:44] Absolutely. Even today. I mean, even if you’re not from the South, you’ve probably heard of the Confederate flag.
[00:09:50] Like when people are like, Oh, like you probably shouldn’t wave that around it’s Oh. Like my neighbors literally have a Confederate flag hanging from their front door, you know? So it’s something that you [00:10:00] couldn’t really avoid. And then, um, also with me being black and also like a light. Skin black woman.
[00:10:05] There are just a lot of different ways that you’re reminded of the history. For sure.
[00:10:11] Dan: [00:10:11] How did your parents help you get through that? I mean, there’s just something about what they instilled in you or helped you to sort of persevere through that or was it just sort of fend for yourself? And that’s the reality of where we have to be
[00:10:24] Bee Law: [00:10:24] say a lot of my family actually is from the South.
[00:10:29] Uh, my dad’s side of the family is from Alabama and my great grandfather was a sharecropper. And just knowing that history and like having the people who at the time were like not too far gone, knowing. The history of what happened. Even my ancestors that lived in the 18 hundreds having to go through, um, our dark past, it’s something that you’re kind of grown up with.
[00:10:54] But I think the fact that my family just talks so much about perseverance. It wasn’t [00:11:00] something that I ever thought was going to hold me back. Um, one thing that I think my mom and my dad both instilled in me is that I couldn’t be the obstacle to my own success. You know, it’s like, all right, these are the cards I was dealt.
[00:11:14] I am a black woman. Society is the certain way, but I couldn’t let those things stop me because they were facts. These are things that are not going to change. But the only thing that I could change is what I could control, which was the way that I saw it or the things that I decided to fight for the values that I had.
[00:11:31] Dan: [00:11:31] I love that that’s pretty profound. It don’t get in your own way that we can all learn from that, for sure. So tell me about anime. How does somebody get exposed to that and sort of become somebody who’s a fan of that?
[00:11:43] Bee Law: [00:11:43] Oh, man. Let’s see. Let’s go back to the old days. Okay. I was a part of the animate era where you really did have to search for it.
[00:11:51] I was at like the beginning of the Toonami phase. So that was of course my first exposure. Right. Everybody loves dragon ball Z, if you’re an animate fan. I think that was [00:12:00] like a lot of people’s first ones. One of my first ones was Nardo, but then of course you had like the Yu-Gi-Oh and things like that, that people don’t really consider as animate, but it was like that first of like, Oh, this is not, I don’t know what the cartoons were.
[00:12:12] This is not something on Nickelodeon. Like, what is this? Thing. And I didn’t have any friends who were also into it. Like the hobbies that my friends liked were basically just music, bass, little Romeo, or a little bow. It was just like, that’s what you’re supposed to like, so then I’m over here and I’m just like, Oh, but like, you know, have you seen as a Japanese cartoon, like this kind of is cool.
[00:12:36] Like they’re they had a cool episode last night. I also grew up during that, the age of where you had to, you. Use things like Limewire to basically, uh, you know, get stuff. I don’t want to call myself out on anything, you know, illegal though. We had to do what we had to do back then though. Eventually I did, maybe in high school, I found my group of [00:13:00] people though.
[00:13:00] They were all like white and Asian people who just liked anime. I’m pretty sure I was. The only black person, girl, or boy who liked it in that group, but I didn’t care. I was like, they’re teaching me that I can go to Barnes and noble and go to the Monga section and get my mom to fix. If I want to they’re teaching me how to use line wire to basically get this animate.
[00:13:23] That’s only available. In Japan and only has Japanese subtitles, but you can use this other reference sites or like, basically understand what they’re saying. Just something about that comradery of like, Ooh, we both liked this thing that not too many other people, like we should hang out. Like this is kind of cool.
[00:13:40] And that I think was my first. Oh, I like this.
[00:13:44] Dan: [00:13:44] That’s cool. I, uh, I see that, you know, it’s sort of a different tribe almost, right. And you have a unique background inside of that tribe, even so I can totally see how it was a place where you could find sort of camaraderie, as you said, in this [00:14:00] bonding around the content.
[00:14:01] And because it’s so unique, you know, it sounds like that’s something that you gravitated towards.
[00:14:05] Bee Law: [00:14:05] Yeah. And it, I don’t know how much of it me like, Oh, I want to be. Different as opposed to like, Oh, I just think that this is really cool. And I didn’t think I’m trying to think of like, what type of teenager or preteen was I though, I didn’t know that I didn’t particularly want to rebel, but I think when my family found out that I liked things that were a little bit different than what they like that definitely it caused some teasing.
[00:14:30] It caused a little bit of like, Oh, you’re kind of weird. What are you doing? Because not only did I like anime, but I liked alternative music and metal rock. Music and my sweet black Southern Christian mom was like, no, this is not, absolutely not, but it just drove me even closer to just figuring out what else was out there.
[00:14:54] Dan: [00:14:54] I mean, I, that’s a great story. I mean, I think that’s, you know, sometimes we have this sense of like, can I double [00:15:00] down on. What people expect or can I just be myself and find what’s interesting to me and wherever that takes me, it takes me.
[00:15:07] Bee Law: [00:15:07] Yeah, exactly.
[00:15:09] Dan: [00:15:09] So you went to school, you went to college in North Carolina as well.
[00:15:13] And so what did you study there?
[00:15:15] Bee Law: [00:15:15] I actually studied and graduated with a biology degree and up until. Actually like a few years after I graduated college, my goal was to be pediatric gastroenterology. And I know that sounds like what, why so specific? Yeah, I wanted to be a doctor. It was something that I have apparently just always wanted to do.
[00:15:38] I really liked, I liked math. I really liked knowing how the body works. It’s literally you, when you think of physiology, it’s literally who you are as a person. When you think of genetics, it’s who you are. And. Something about that has always been fascinating to me. So I graduated with a degree in biology and my whole goal was to go to, uh, to [00:16:00] medical school.
[00:16:00] I even took the M cat and did well on it. So I know we’ll get to that later. Like what happened there, but yeah, that’s what I did. And a minor in Spanish, if that’s important.
[00:16:11] Dan: [00:16:11] Wow. Minor in Spanish. Yeah. Well, that’s interesting. Why, why specifically the specialists specialty that you mentioned pediatric.
[00:16:18] Gastro. And I can’t even say it
[00:16:21] Bee Law: [00:16:21] pediatric gastrin urology. I, the reason that I did is because when I was in high school, I started a nonprofit for children with autism. So with that, it started off because I saw this girl on the bus getting bullied and I usually didn’t take the bus. Cause at that point, like I started driving when I was.
[00:16:41] As soon as I could drive it, I think like 15, 16. And I remember, I think my car was in the shop or something like that. So I had to take the bus. And when I went on the bus, there’s this girl who I knew had autism on top of like a few other disabilities. And she just was getting bullied [00:17:00] so badly. And I. I was like, why do people not know that like she’s has these disabilities?
[00:17:06] Like, why are people doing this to her? And I was like, well, if people knew more about what should they probably wouldn’t see her as weird. So I started off just sitting with her at lunch. I’ll be your friend. I wasn’t really like popular or anything, but I was just seen as like, I guess what you would consider a normal person.
[00:17:24] And I wanted people to also see her. As a normal person. So I just sat with her at lunch. And then from there, it kind of grew into a what’d you call it like a lunch buddy program. And we did it at a few different high schools and middle schools throughout the area. And that turned into a day camp that we would hold during the summer for children with autism.
[00:17:44] And just, that was really cool. But one thing that I noticed just talking to different parents through that experience was that a lot of their children had gastrointestinal issues. A lot of them had prones disease or couldn’t have casein and yeah. Gluten [00:18:00] and all these things. And I knew that I also had a few digestive issues and it was just something where I was like, Oh, like, I just want to be the one who does the research on this.
[00:18:08] So I, I went to undergrad with that objective, but then I ended up actually working in cytogenetics, which is, I decided genetics is basically chromosomes. So looking into chromosome abnormalities, which also ties into special needs. So I was the one who would be in the lab and get like the specimens of blood and basically a culture of the cells to see.
[00:18:33] If there were any chromosome abnormalities, I don’t know if you remember in like your biology textbook, but there would be a picture of all of your chromosomes laid out. It’s called a karyotype. Sure. But I would basically, yeah, it’s okay. If he done inside, I wouldn’t be the one who would actually put together this carrier types of all of your chromosomes.
[00:18:54] And then I would go through. And see if any of them were abnormal. Uh, it kind of just went [00:19:00] into that.
[00:19:00] Dan: [00:19:00] Well, this is quite a story.
[00:19:02] Bee Law: [00:19:02] Yes. I know.
[00:19:03] Dan: [00:19:03] We’re going to have to dig into how somebody with such a profound empathy and mission and sort of goal singularly vision turns into an entrepreneur working on something totally different.
[00:19:14] But in the meantime, we’re going to take a short break and we’ll be right back with B law from Quirktastic.
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[00:20:14] Dan: [00:20:14] So we’re back with Bee Law from Quirktastic. So Bee we were just getting into how you had this mission for our passion around helping people. And it’s an incredible story around movement that you created around just this one catalyzing event of, uh, wanting to protect or, or ally, somebody who was being bullied.
[00:20:36] And tell us more about how, and when you decided that. Med school and that mission ultimately wasn’t the choice or was there an event or a time when you said, yeah, I’m going to do something different.
[00:20:48] Bee Law: [00:20:48] Oh yeah. And I don’t know. It’s, it’s so crazy to think back to my days of, like, I built out this five Oh one C three nonprofit and I kind of, I dunno, I guess I don’t really recognize it too [00:21:00] much whenever I tell my stories.
[00:21:01] Like, it’s usually not something that I bring up. I think I’m typically. Super focused on Quicktastic and kind of see them as like two different lives, but there is definitely a bridge and a turning point of like, when I went, um, full Quirktastic, I was applying to medical school, took them, Kat did fine on the end cap.
[00:21:20] And, uh, during the process of applied to medical school, it typically takes several months to like, almost like a full school year. To get accepted into a medical school. And I remember that you needed a committee letter for the schools that I was applying to you, and it was a super expensive process to apply to medical school one, but then you needed your professors as well as any doctors that you shadowed and a few other people to kind of all get together and write one packet letter.
[00:21:49] And I remember I shadowed this awesome cardiologist. Very well-renowned. But it was not very technological. And for some reason, his [00:22:00] peace did not come to the letter, which delayed my whole application several months. And as yes, and as we know, medical school is very competitive. I ended up getting wait-listed.
[00:22:12] Um, most of the schools that I applied to and didn’t get in. So it was like, okay, well I have to take a whole nother year to figure out what I’m going to do. I was in the process of reapplying and there are two steps. Like you have like a primary application and then each school sends you like a secondary application if you’ve passed through the first part.
[00:22:28] So I sent in my primary applications, and this is when I actually started a blog and this blog was more of a lifestyle blog of just, I was like, I needed something to do. I was like, I have a whole nother year that I’m not going to be a medical school. Like. I am working in the lab with me, just start a blog.
[00:22:44] It was the thing to do back in, what was it like 2014 or something like that? I think it was when I started the blog. So I ended up doing that and really liked it. I liked the community of blogging. I’ve always really liked writing. [00:23:00] But I think it was something that I kind of suppressed because I was like, Oh, I’m going to be a doctor.
[00:23:04] And my mom was like, you’re going to be the doctor in the family, you know, so much pressure. I was like, okay. Yeah. Then he, the doctor like screw that. I also like writing, like. Full force like MD. Yeah. But then when I took that year off, I was like, well, what else do I like to do? I like to write, I made this blog and it actually ended up getting pretty popular.
[00:23:29] And from there I was able to actually monetize the blog. I was part of a few different blogger networks. There is one very popular one called mode that is no longer around because they went bankrupt. I remember that. Yes. Oh my gosh. So even with that, I think that was when I was like, okay, maybe blogging.
[00:23:48] Isn’t it. Maybe I need to figure out a way to make money for myself because bode owed me money.
[00:23:53] Dan: [00:23:53] Oh no.
[00:23:55] Bee Law: [00:23:55] Yeah. Oh my God. I remember when that whole thing went down, like the way that it went down was, [00:24:00] um, it was very. Sudden, it was like one day they were there. And then the next day I tried logging into my network to see the opportunities and like also to see when I was going to get paid and it was not there.
[00:24:13] So I like, of course go online and I’m talking to all the other popular bloggers at the time, going on their Facebook page. And he was like, yo, like what’s going on? And then the next day we get a message. That’s like, well, we’re gone. Like we’re bankrupt. We told our employees the same day that you all found out, like it’s done.
[00:24:31] Like after that moment, I just remember thinking like, Oh, I need to do something else. And this was like a few years in the game. So I’m
[00:24:39] Dan: [00:24:39] surprised that that didn’t sort of Jade you, or tell you to run back to being a doctor or something that the internet is this a, you know, wild West that you can’t trust?
[00:24:48] Bee Law: [00:24:48] Yeah, you would think so, but actually I still kind of saw it as like a, it was like a side hustle. Like I’ve always had it in my mind that I could be more than one thing. So in [00:25:00] my mind, even though medical school, especially like your first few years are very hard. But for some reason, in my mind, I was like, I could be this cool blogger who travels and stuff, but also is in medical school.
[00:25:12] And it’s also this amazing doctors. And I was like, I was going full force with both of them. And of course burnt myself out, trying to even think about both. But I remember the moment that I decided to kind of take Quirktastic full speed. So after blogging, I kind of got tired of blogging, so I wasn’t really focused on like, who.
[00:25:34] My audience was though, I ended up posting a few blog posts. I remember my first blog post that got a lot of traction was a post. About cos players. And it was like 200 black cos players that you should know. And the reason that I wrote this post is because a lot of the other publications at the time would post all of these awesome posts about cause players that are killing it.
[00:25:57] And there would not be [00:26:00] anybody of color, like, not just like a black one, but like Latin or barely even any Asian, which is like, hello, Japan. But, so she was like, Oh, no. Like when I wrote. To one of the publications, they said, Oh, we don’t know any black cause players. And I’m like, did you look? So I wrote a post kind of in spite of like 200 cause players of color that you should know.
[00:26:27] And I did a list posting to all of their, um, I think most of them are on Facebook at the time. And from there I’ll have the blog post took off. I didn’t get reached. It helped my. Overall blog, reach over half a million page views a month for several months. Yes. So I was like, Oh wow. There’s community. And people actually want to like have this type of content, which was great.
[00:26:52] And
[00:26:52] Dan: [00:26:52] for those who don’t know what is a cost player?
[00:26:55] Bee Law: [00:26:55] Yes. Oh, thank you for, thank you for that. So, Claus player is [00:27:00] it’s basically like costume play. It’s where you dress up as your favorite character. Typically, I know for Halloween people dress up as their favorite character or something silly. Um, it’s when people dress up, not on Halloween and they’re like lots of conventions.
[00:27:15] So if you dress up as your favorite anime characters, such as Nardo. Or if you dress up even Marvel characters, like you’ll see people dressed up as Spiderman or wonder woman they’re technically in cosplay.
[00:27:29] Dan: [00:27:29] Okay. Makes sense. And like you said, there’s usually gatherings or events or conferences that people showcase some of this.
[00:27:38] Bee Law: [00:27:38] So lately there, if you live anywhere in the U S and also abroad. Your city, most likely has a comic or anime convention. Uh, one of the largest ones being San Diego comic con, which has recently changed their name to comic con international. These events attract a lot of pupil, like comic con international.
[00:27:59] Attracts [00:28:00] well, over a hundred thousand people for like a three to four day event. And most of these attract thousands of people and all of your favorite voice actors or actors in general are typically at these events.
[00:28:14] Dan: [00:28:14] Nice. So that you, so you do this blog post in, you get this aha like, Oh my goodness.
[00:28:19] There’s people out here that really are attracted to this either. They want to know more about it or they want to identify with it.
[00:28:26] Bee Law: [00:28:26] So I’m with that. Also while I was blogging. Cause I told you I wanted to do it all. This was when I was working in cytogenetics. So I would literally be, um, either in a lab or behind a microscope for 10 to 13 hours a day.
[00:28:41] And then I would come back home. I like one o’clock in the morning and work on my blog and just like do that over and over and over, I guess kind of getting to the point of where I decided to go from this wog to Quirktastic, and then. From doing Quirktastic part-time so full time. It was because I found my [00:29:00] community online and I was like, okay.
[00:29:02] After I wrote this post and I wrote a few other posts that were also highlighting. Different cause players and anime and stuff like that. I kind of found my tribe of people online. So I commune with them, but then on finding people in like Facebook groups and some Reddit and things like that, I also found a whole bunch of bullying and harassment online, especially for.
[00:29:26] Women and, uh, women of color or people of color in general, it was like you would post a photo of you dressed up as whatever characters of the cosplay we were talking about. And someone would come up and say, Oh, you can’t cause play that person. You’re black, this person, like it’s not cannon, which is like, Oh, it’s not true too.
[00:29:49] The the series. And it’s like, what? Like, why? Like this is supposed to be a hobby we’re supposed to be enjoying the community and having fun and [00:30:00] you’d have so many people that would just, and I’m, I’m being very light by thinking, Oh, you shouldn’t cause, but it was like, I feel like very horrible language of just Downing people and straight up harassing them, anytime that they posted anything.
[00:30:14] Just because. They didn’t look like the character or you didn’t believe that someone like them actually liked anime or gaming or whatever else it was, especially with women, you would have. Well first, a lot of guys would be like, Oh, you can’t be into gaming or you can’t be into anime. Your boyfriend must be into it.
[00:30:32] Or like, if you really like it, name these characters and tell me what happened on episode number 17. It’s like, Oh my God. Yeah. Oh yeah. What reason? That’s kind of what my thought was. So from there I decided to quit the blog that I was doing. And that was when I came up with the idea of Quirktastic, which at the time focused on, uh, people of color who liked fandom.
[00:30:57] And, um, that was like the very first version. [00:31:00] And then it was more of like focusing on people who probably were underrepresented in fandom. So people color women, and then also the LGBT community, which are three groups that we still very much to advocate for in pork chat, which was our newest platform.
[00:31:16] And from there, I was like, this is it. Like, these are the people that are my people. And I want to figure out the best way to advocate for this community. So that was start.
[00:31:28] Dan: [00:31:28] And was there like a day when you said I’m leaving my job and I’m going to go do this full time?
[00:31:34] Bee Law: [00:31:34] Oh yes, there definitely. I, yeah, there just came a point.
[00:31:40] Yeah. And I’m sure other people can relate. There, there are a few different things that happened. There was like a bit of cognitive dissonance because I was working with I’m allowing, I’m working my butt off a lot in the lab and then I’d come home home and do this thing that I was definitely more passionate about.
[00:31:59] And I was like, Oh, [00:32:00] like, I’d go from this like super joy then to being in a room with no windows. And it was just like, Oh God, I’m just allocating media every day for 13 hours. And looking through this microscope and I enjoyed, I actually like the work wasn’t hard at all. Um, and I actually would have probably stayed longer.
[00:32:20] I actually liked the people I was working with and I think that people would definitely make the job because, uh, my breaking point was there is one person. And you know who you are, but he tampered with my cells that I cultured. So I had to, and I won’t go into too much detail because this is not a science podcast.
[00:32:39] However, he basically out of spite towards me, messed up my clients results.
[00:32:46] Dan: [00:32:46] No way.
[00:32:47] Bee Law: [00:32:47] Yeah. I was like, people have drawn blood and paid money for these tests and he had marked them all as like unreadable. So we had to go out and get the patients to take more samples. And this was like, [00:33:00] not just one or two patients.
[00:33:01] It was like a few patients. And then to find out that my, um, the person who was my manager went back and were like, who Mark? These is wrong. Like they were all correct. We basically took these steps for no reason. And I was like, wow. I R it already kind of had a problem with this person, but it was like, it was more moral thing.
[00:33:20] It was like, if somebody is willing to do that, Out of spite. Like I was like, I do not want to be around this at all. So it was the combination of me, like not really giving along with a few certain people at work to like that incident. And then to just basically having this other thing that I really enjoyed really enjoyed the people in the industry.
[00:33:41] And there was one day where I was in, um, I was in the hood, which is where you kind of culture your cells and all of that. And I was listening to a podcast about this woman quitting her job. And then I listened to another podcast, actually about an incubator by Kathryn Finney called Digital [00:34:00] Undivided.
[00:34:01] And I was like, Oh, like, I don’t know if Quirktastic qualifies for this. I don’t know if we’re ready. I don’t even know what venture capital is at this point. I was like, maybe I’ll just apply and see what happens. So I applied for it and I actually quit the day before I got accepted into the program. But that was like, when I was like, all right, well, I’m in LA.
[00:34:23] See what this is about.
[00:34:24] Dan: [00:34:24] Wow. So you quit first and then you found out
[00:34:27] Bee Law: [00:34:27] literally the day after I quit. Or like when I put in my notice, I found out that next day that I actually got accepted into the incubator.
[00:34:35] Dan: [00:34:35] Wow. Wow. That’s
[00:34:37] Bee Law: [00:34:37] crazy. So either way I was out of there, but thankfully the universe had my back to you.
[00:34:43] Dan: [00:34:43] So tell us let’s fast forward a little bit. Let tell us more about Quirktastic as it is today. Like, what are the elements? What’s, what’s the parts of the offering? What’s the community like?
[00:34:54] Bee Law: [00:34:54] So a Quirktastic has definitely had a few different evolutions, but I think we most [00:35:00] recently, I don’t know if we’ll get into accelerators at any point, but we did.
[00:35:04] We’ve under had an, a program called XX, so they had an XX fund. That was for women. And I was like my first chunk of money that I got to, where I could actually build something and have people help me, uh, with the platform. So my goal there was just like, let’s see what people want. I had already built an audience or just like a very small audience.
[00:35:27] Thankfully because of the blog that I had beforehand. So I had people that could test it. And I really, uh, after the incubator, I learned how to do customer discovery. So I really just asked the audit and it’s like, what do you all want? Like, what would you like to see. And they’re just like we make friends.
[00:35:47] That’s all. I just want someone that I can talk to about anime. So where we’re at now with cork chat is we are creating a social video platform to where you can basically [00:36:00] just create response videos rapidly within 15 seconds. So it’s a short media that people can basically create together so you can join live discussions and repost them on other platforms.
[00:36:14] Uh, we also have like the live streaming aspect. So you can do group live streaming pod videos. For example, a lot of people use the platform Twitch because they want to live stream video. There’s a small group of people on Twitch who are not doing video. They’re just on there talking to people. This is great.
[00:36:33] That’s also what you see on Instagram stories, but I believe on Instagram stories, you can only have one other person on the platform to, whereas with us, we kind of took that basics of like, all right, talking to people. And we shaped that into pod chats, which allows you to, um, basically have pod like fruit videos.
[00:36:54] With, uh, random people or people that you already know. So the way that we’ve seen people use [00:37:00] it is you have a few people that have a podcast. And in addition to their podcast, the four of them will get on and basically create content that other people can watch on the form though. What we’re kind of shifting it to is doing pod chat, invitations, to where it has.
[00:37:17] You can kind of create just random interactions with people through an invitation. You’ll probably see a prompt of like, Hey, we see that you like animate. There’s a pod chat coming up about what animate are you watching? Do you want to join this podcast? So you can, if you accept the invitation. You’ll be added to a podcast with three other random people and you all can all talk and hopefully become friends.
[00:37:41] So it’s kind of
[00:37:43] Dan: [00:37:43] part content, part, community interaction, and kind of social all in all in sort of one interface, which I guess is there’s a mobile app is sort of the
[00:37:52] Bee Law: [00:37:52] core. That’s exactly it. And the reason that we kind of decided to do this, like one-stop shop approach is [00:38:00] that I think that’s kind of how fandom is.
[00:38:01] Like, if you think of the reason that we have. Comic conventions it’s because one, we want to see other people who are into the same things that we’re into you, but also it’s like, we want it all and to kind of be submerged into another world is kind of what it’s like. But I think everything that we do done is kind of just based on that one principle of like, we just want to talk geek with other people.
[00:38:23] Like that’s literally, if you go to like the basis of anything that Quirktastic creates. As well as like just fandom in general, it’s like, we just want to talk geek with other people. That’s literally like the, the main thing. So we’ve created in the first feature that I was talking about is called quips members can create 15, second collaborative video responses.
[00:38:43] To user generated topics to voice their opinions and that you can combine up to four responses to share on other platforms, a use case example. If I wanted to give my opinion on why K-pop is better than I dunno country, right. Music, I [00:39:00] can say it’s like super random, but like, say that I wanted to, yeah, just like I was in the mood of just like, this is what I feel.
[00:39:07] It’s like. Have you heard of BTS, have you heard of black pink? They are so much better than Gavin, a girl or whatever. So I give my 15 second take and then several other users could come and kind of add their voice to that original piece. That’s basic thing. We just want to talk with other people.
[00:39:24] Dan: [00:39:24] I love it.
[00:39:25] I love that talk geek with other people. And then there’s a certain element there of the community as a movement, almost right at these people and communities and voices and conversations. That need a place to gather and need a place to sort of coalesce and feel safe and ability to express themselves.
[00:39:42] And so it makes a lot of sense, for sure.
[00:39:45] Bee Law: [00:39:45] Yeah. At first I think court task six goal was to be that community, but it’s like, Oh, like we’re trying to be too much. Like we’re trying to be there for the people who like anime gaming. K-pop the general weirdos, like the free spirits, [00:40:00] all of that. I think that was like the first version of quick Tosic.
[00:40:03] But now. We’re really focused on giving other community builders a chance to basically find and basically cultivate their own communities. So we actually worked with a few different comic conventions who are building their communities through cork chat, as well as different, um, organizers, like people who would typically have Facebook pages are using quart chat to kind of find their people.
[00:40:28] Cause we also have an aspect that we’re adding. That’s basically a channel chat. That allows you to build your audience and kind of talk to them and give them that sense of comradery. So, yeah, it’s all about community,
[00:40:40] Dan: [00:40:40] pretty easy to see the power of this platform, for sure. So we’re going to take another short break and we’ll be right back with B law from Quirktastic.
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[00:41:43] Dan: [00:41:43] So we’re back with Bee Law from Quirktastic. So Bee, tell us a little bit about how does this became a business. How do you decide to figure out how to make money? Or is there a business model around this?
[00:41:55] Bee Law: [00:41:55] Yeah, so I don’t know when people will be listening to this podcast, but for [00:42:00] anyone listening in the future, this is smack dab in the middle of COVID-19 2020.
[00:42:05] With that. Uh, we’ve had a few different business models, but more recently we’ve had to change our business model, which started off as frustrating, but actually is probably for the best. So before COVID-19 third, two main ways that we were making money, we had an e-commerce shop kind of just to sustain us because I was like, Oh, like, we’re not at a point where we’re raising funds right now.
[00:42:29] And I don’t want to just slap on a whole bunch of ads for the community, or really try to monetize something to where we’re not really sure what’s going to be yet. But one thing that I know that nerds, like, because I am one is we like stuff like we like shirts, we like things that are fandom based. So, uh, we start off with just the quirk shop kind of to sustain ourselves and actually.
[00:42:54] Ended up growing pretty, pretty large. Like we were actually a part of Macy’s [00:43:00] female showcase back in quarter four of 2019 into quarter, one of 20, 20 up until coronavirus. Uh, but, and, and that was, that was really cool. So that was one way that we would monetize it essentially.
[00:43:16] Yeah, t-shirts, uh, crew necks, pillows, things like that.
[00:43:21] That was just apparel. And then the other way that we were making money at the beginning of 2020 before the whole world got shut down was we were basically monetizing through conventions. One way was through partnerships, but the main way we built out a ticketing platform through our app. Called Connie for convention Connie convention.
[00:43:44] And the way that we were thinking was like, well, we want to take an action that people are already used to taking and basically just amplify it and make it easier. So what a lot of people in our community were already doing was going to conventions. And [00:44:00] not just one, we would typically go to, I think the number when we did the research was most people go to about four different conventions.
[00:44:08] So where on like the higher end, you have some people that go to two conventions each month, which is like 24 conventions. I don’t know how they do it, but that’s definitely not me. But, uh, the media number that we found was about four, uh, conventions per year. And with that, uh, convention tickets there.
[00:44:27] Typically either like around $50 or a few hundred dollars. And we were working alongside the event organizers and seeing like what they needed. And we put that into our platform that they wanted to reach our audience because it was so diverse or is so diverse. Most of our users are actually women, which a lot of event organizers who are like, we want more women at our event, obviously.
[00:44:51] So yeah. So we built a way to where you can buy all of your tickets through our platform. And that did well for like a few weeks, [00:45:00] until South by Southwest was canceled. And then we were like, Oh, if South by Southwest got canceled, everything is getting canceled this year. And, um, yeah. So South by Southwest being the largest, what tech conference I think in North America, I don’t know if it’s beyond that, but it’s very big.
[00:45:17] That was the indication for us of like, we need to change how we monetize because we’re still too new for us to really just like, we weren’t like an Eventbrite or something like that. Like we had not, we didn’t have any skin in the game at this point. So where we’re at now is just micro transactions through the app where you are able to, uh, tip different, uh, pod chatters and quips through the app, as well as, um, a subscription that we’re still coming up with pricing with.
[00:45:45] So in a sense, it’s kind of like starting over, which is at first discouraging because it’s like, we were just about to raise like a larger amount, but now we’re, we’ve kind of been knocked back down to like almost pre-seed the seed.
[00:46:01] [00:46:00] Dan: [00:46:01] It sounds like you have a pretty good plan though. And how do you measure success?
[00:46:06] Like your success metrics right now? Is it around engagement or a number of users or app downloads or content created? How are you thinking about measuring the growth of the business?
[00:46:18] Bee Law: [00:46:18] Yeah, so where we were at, um, beforehand is monthly active users, as well as how many times people open the app and how long they were on the app.
[00:46:28] And our, our numbers are pretty solid currently. We’re at about like 25, 28,000 monthly active users. And they opened the app about seven times a day, which was really cool. And they spend about 78 minutes on the app each day, which when I first saw it, I was like, Oh wow, like that’s. Like, are we sure this is right?
[00:46:49] But then I think about when I think about how often I open Instagram, I’m like, Oh yeah, I could see that I open Instagram. Like if you’re not even going to say how much I opened Instagram. So I was like, okay, [00:47:00] this is really great.
[00:47:01] Dan: [00:47:01] That is pretty good. By the way. I mean, I think a lot of apps would kill for 78 minutes a day.
[00:47:06] Bee Law: [00:47:06] Thank you so much. Yeah. And it’s, I think that’s so I dunno. It’s really cool. And when I’ve talked to investors about it, they’re just like, Oh, like you should just push out on like, basically just getting more users, like you already have the platform, like let’s just go forward with that. But we have thankfully a we’re really close with our audience, which is good.
[00:47:26] I know another company that does really good customer feedback is discord and we kind of. Are on that same vein of just like, let’s listen to what the audience wants the community wants. And there are a few key, um, features that they’re looking for just a few different tweaks before we really go out with just acquiring new users.
[00:47:49] So we have really good, like our CAC is pretty good or I guess like user acquisition costs whenever we’ve done any type of ad, like on Facebook. It’s only been like 23 cents [00:48:00] cost per install. So I think because we are kind of on the niche side of things, it’s like, once you see it, it’s like, Oh, I’ve been waiting for this.
[00:48:08] Like, I’m definitely going to download it and at least check it out.
[00:48:12] Dan: [00:48:12] Complete sense to me. I mean that, yeah, I think that’s one of the beauties of the internet in general is this ability to have people find their, you know, sort of place where they feel comfortable and connected. And it’s not limited by.
[00:48:26] Where you are physically or where you can get to. So it makes complete sense. And especially now that COVID is here and people won’t have as much opportunity to assemble, you know, at least in the short term, right. In some of these conferences and events, they’re going to seek out. This kind of, um, virtual connection, uh, much more, I think.
[00:48:45] Bee Law: [00:48:45] Yeah. And it’s not even just like your typical geek who’s using PrePass stick, which will be quick chat, hopefully by the time of this podcast has air. But, um, cause we are in the process of changing the name, but it’s also, um, [00:49:00] the talent that would typically be at comic conventions. Uh, so you have, uh, people like Warner brothers and, uh, Their partner, DC comics, as well as HBO and Marvel.
[00:49:12] Like they typically go to these conventions to kind of build community around a show that’s coming out or a movie that’s coming out. So they’ll bring the voice actors out to basically, um, just bring that comradery and bring that excitement to the moment. And now that’s gone. So people are able to actually use quick chat to just show their face and kind of promote themselves.
[00:49:38] For example, we were able to work with love cross country, which was a show on HBO. We did a lot of experimental marketing with love craft and it turned out great. So it’s just really cool to see who I’ll use this Quirktastic.
[00:49:52] Dan: [00:49:52] That’s terrific. Um, so with the time we have left, I want to explore a little bit, you know, some of the things you mentioned.
[00:49:58] About being a [00:50:00] part of accelerators. So you were in Digital Undivided, and I know you’ve mentioned before Snapchat and we funder maybe tell us a little bit about through those experiences as a black woman, founder of there, things were. You’ve been given advantages or things where you’ve been giving more, more challenges in the, in that respect being essentially as a, as a black woman founder throughout those programs, in the context of being parts of cohorts with other founders.
[00:50:31] Bee Law: [00:50:31] Yeah. So I’ll start with Digital Undivided. Um, and for those who don’t know, it’s actually geared towards black and Latinex founders, uh, black and Latinex women founders. Um, it was started by Kathryn Finney, who, um, is an amazing entrepreneur, turned founder of Digital Undivided. And that was actually my first two, my first intro into anything startup, like I’ve never worked at a startup at that point.
[00:50:57] I did not know anything about investing. Like I [00:51:00] remember one of my first questions is like, well, like when do I pay them back? If they invest like rapid have to do it next year? Like what, like, how does, um, since it’s work out. So I didn’t know. I had no the idea of what a series AIDS with series D was when I started.
[00:51:15] So I considered those months kind of my foundation and I. I’m actually really glad that I was able to have those experiences and those learning moments with other founders who looked like me. Um, as silly as that sounds like I’ve worked in science most of my life. So I remember being in classes to where I was like, I don’t like I’m one of the only black women here.
[00:51:38] I don’t want to ask a stupid question. Um, I don’t want people to look at me like, Oh, I don’t deserve to be here because of course, I mean, I’m not going to go into it, but we know like all the rumors with like, Oh, black people, affirmative action. When it comes to medical schools and things like that. And I was like, I am not going to like, Play into that.
[00:51:53] But with Digital Undivided being other black and Latinex women, I felt like I could ask the stupid [00:52:00] questions. And I think that it actually like helped me out in the long run. Um, but then moving forward, I went through the WeFunder XX program, which was in San Francisco and the way that it was laid out.
[00:52:12] So Digital Undivided, it was very much structured because it was an incubator it’s foundational, but then I moved. Forward to the we funder program. And with that program, it was basically like, almost like on the level of an accelerator. Like I’m just going to put you all together and we’re going to do these meetings where these really cool people who have run businesses come and we all have dinner together.
[00:52:35] And then during the day you kind of do your thing, but without experience, I also lived in a hacker house. Uh, which was my first experience in San Francisco. Like I remember arriving from North Carolina to San Francisco in the middle of the night. Never like only being to California, I think once before in my life.
[00:52:54] And then having to take my suitcase up into this attic and sleep on a [00:53:00] cot for like three months. Yeah. And it was,
[00:53:04] Dan: [00:53:04] was it in the city itself?
[00:53:05] Bee Law: [00:53:05] Oh, yeah, I was in Noey Valley. It was just like, very adjacent to like the mission area. Yeah. So that’s where I lived though. Nobody, Valley’s definitely more like suburban, like a lot of women with strollers and stuff like that.
[00:53:18] So I was like, where am I? But, um, It was an interesting experience. That was one where I was the only black person. I was the only person who was from the South who didn’t go to so-called good school, Ivy league school, or things like that. Everyone else went to like Stanford or Berkeley. Or, um, whatever the great colleges are in Canada, that was probably the most culture shock that I, and then I think by the time I got the Snapchat, I was kind of used to the game.
[00:53:47] Cause this was maybe like a year later I was used to it. Um, but it was an LA, which adds like a whole nother element of things.
[00:53:55] Dan: [00:53:55] So it sounds like. Good for you that you had Digital Undivided first and got some [00:54:00] wind in your sails and some confidence. And like you said, learning about these things, which most of the world doesn’t know about.
[00:54:05] Right. I mean, series a and convertible notes and, and those kinds of things just, it’s not the jargon that the average person learns or even the college student. Right. So, um, so it sounds like that was a great. Um, opportunity for you to sort of get up that learning curve quickly.
[00:54:22] Bee Law: [00:54:22] Yeah. I definitely consider it like an MBA on steroids.
[00:54:25] When I think of it, it’s like, all right, all the things that you actually need to know for a startup, like this is kind of how it works. This is how investors talk. Of course it was like all that they could cram into a few months. So not. All inclusive, but at least I had like the really good start of like, you should read Brad Felt’s books.
[00:54:45] Like you didn’t read venture deals like you should do all these other things, things that I would have never known to do. And then moving on to. There’ll be funder XX program. I think that kind of introduced me more into the people who were actually like in the field [00:55:00] making the differences. Like I was able to meet the people who, um, were at w a Y Combinator.
[00:55:06] And I learned about Y Combinator as well as like people who worked at Google, like the founders of Airbnb and caviar, which was startup at the time. And I’m just learning about people in the industry gave a different perspective
[00:55:21] Dan: [00:55:21] is a great arc for sure to go through those experiences. So we like to finish up with this one question.
[00:55:26] If you could go back to the, let’s say the 2014 version of B law and give that version of yourself, advice about what to look for, what to do or not do to get to where you are today or beyond where you are today. What is what, what’s one piece of advice you would give that be law?
[00:55:47] Bee Law: [00:55:47] That’s such a good question.
[00:55:49] I would say. And I love this just because I’ve actually thought about this. Like what would I tell myself if I could do it over again? Cause I’ve definitely made some mistakes. I’ve spent money that [00:56:00] I didn’t need to spend simply because I wanted to figure out a way to do it the most correct. Or I’m use people who I thought knew things better than I did.
[00:56:12] And I think the biggest advice I would tell myself is it’s going to look different for you than it is going to look for some of these people who kind of grew up in the environment and that’s okay. And you don’t have to emulate them. You can figure out what works best for you and your company at the moment.
[00:56:30] Because I think I, I spent so many, especially like the first year of building quirk Cassick of like trying to figure out the exact right way to do things. I definitely threw things out there. Like even the current version of the app that’s in the app store is like a version that I threw out because of COVID of just like, all right, we want to test out these new features.
[00:56:51] Let’s just get them out there. We’ll clean it up later. I’m definitely like an experimenter, but there’s also a part of me. That’s like, Oh, like there’s always something that like, I, I must be [00:57:00] missing something or something that I don’t know. And it’s like, no one really knows what they’re doing. Like, you know, like a general amount, but it’s not going to look.
[00:57:08] The same for everyone. And I spent so much time kind of like getting mentorship and I feel at this point, like very over mentored and underfunded, like, and I feel like that’s the story for a lot of black founders, especially black women founders. It’s like the first thing people want to do is mentor us.
[00:57:26] And I’m like, dude, I’ve been mentored by like literally 100 people. And they all say completely different things. I appreciate it. And it’s definitely shaped me, but like, I’m good. So I would tell myself, have confidence and, um, just know that even if it looks different than what other people. Say that it should look like it’s fine.
[00:57:48] Dan: [00:57:48] I love that. And especially this idea of comparison and, you know, just knowing that your journey is going to be unique and having confidence. And you’re totally right that like most people don’t know what they’re doing. [00:58:00] And the idea of the marketplace telling them ultimately is the answer. And some people get that answer as sooner than later, but it’s not because they were brilliant.
[00:58:08] So, uh, for our listeners out there who are aspiring entrepreneurs or people who might want to work with you. Tell us, how can we be helpful to Quirktastic right now?
[00:58:19] Bee Law: [00:58:19] Thanks for asking. So I mentioned we funded that we were a part of their XX program, but for those who don’t know, what we funder is, it’s actually a crowdfunding investment platform to where you can invest as little as a hundred dollars.
[00:58:33] Into any company that has campaigned on there and Quirktastic, we actually just launched our campaign about 10 days ago to the public. And I were still at the beginning stages. We’ve raised at the point of this interview about 30 K. Um, but we didn’t, you have a larger goal. So if you would like to support Quirktastic, we would love to have you as an investor, even.
[00:58:55] For a a hundred dollars point or more. We have some pretty cool perks. [00:59:00] So I would love for you to just at least check out our campaign. And if you’re not able to invest, definitely tell someone to where you feel like this is a up their alley.
[00:59:08] Dan: [00:59:08] Nice. And, um, you want to give us URLs or social handles either for the campaign or for quick tasks in general?
[00:59:15] Bee Law: [00:59:15] Yeah. So the, we funder is wefunder.com/quirktastic. And quirk as in quirky and then tastic like fantastic. Fantastic. And then on all other social media, since we are rebranding, you can find us @quirkchat.
[00:59:32] Dan: [00:59:32] Awesome. Well, be this has been an awesome conversation. I wish we could go on and on and on. I want to thank you so much for taking the time and sharing your great thoughts and your story.
[00:59:43] Bee Law: [00:59:43] This has been so great and a very holistic interview. So thanks so much for having me.
[00:59:49] Dan: [00:59:49] We’d like to thank our guests, Bee Law and our sponsor Founders Live. Don’t forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or simply go to foundersunfound.com/listento. [01:00:00] That’s listen-to and follow us on Twitter, Instagram or LinkedIn @foundersunfound.
[01:00:06] This podcast was produced by Dan Kihanya. Editing and production by Georgia Garcia-Moreno, Albert Holguin, and Katelyn Limber. Social media and other promotion by Omama Marzuq and Aneisha Barnett. I am Dan Kihanya and you’ve been listening to Founders Unfound.
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